A QUESTION FOR WOODY BOATERS – Why have a mast on a classic motor boat*
Can You Spot The Difference Between The Two Photos Above Of SKIPJACK ?
*It is something I get asked a lot, mainly when someone is restoring a classic wooden launch and trying to decide if they should reinstate the wooden mast that they have seen in older b/w photos. My answer is always yes and this based on the belief the mast was never about sailing power — it served practical, traditional, and aesthetic purposes. It was used to hoist navigation and signal flags, support lights or an awning, and sometimes rig a small boom for lifting dinghies or stores. A few launches even set a steadying sail to ease rolling in a swell.
But most importantly, to me, reinstalling a mast preserves originality and gives a launch a proper profile and balances her shape — and adds character. So in short: not for sailing power, but for utility, stability, and looks.
Still on the topic and focussing on the area of stability, during the week Greg Billington the owner of the 1918 Chas Bailey built launch – SKIPJACK contacted me following up on the story we did on SKIPJACK. Greg had two things he wanted to share – 1. SKIPJACK was no longer for sale, he had seen the light and decided to keep her ✔️ – we liked that.
And 2. Share a recent experience around masts on old classic launches – I’ll hand over to Greg to tell the story:
“I thought I would share something that may be of interest to readers. Along the lines of ‘a little knowledge is a dangerous thing…’
I was offshore on one occasion when a beam sea knocked the boat over such that I had this thought – ‘that heavy wooden mast must go.’ I had this thought because it appeared that bringing the mast back up was an issue. It wasn’t, obviously. Nevertheless, I thought I would lower the centre of gravity and improve the righting moment with a shorter, lighter mast. So, I installed an alloy mast, which did make the boat significantly stiffer, but sometimes more than I wanted.
After much thought and further reading, I decided that the original wooden mast must have made the boat more tender i.e. slowing and dampening roll and therefore making for a more comfortable ride. Guess what? It did. So, I am attaching a couple of pics showing the alloy mast, and then the old wooden mast back where it belongs and I can say that the motion in any sea is considerably improved. Which goes to show, and I don’t mind admitting, that the boat builder knew far more than me.”
And woodys for the record the 2nd photo above is the wooden mast 😉
1910 >1920 – original Deeming homestead and boat shed at Tapu Point
1945 > mid-1950’s – Opua to Okiato vehicular ferry
1980’s
1990’s
SAD DEMISE OF CLASSIC WOODEN LAUNCH – ILEX
WW has been contacted by Greg Philpott regarding the 1910 classic wooden launch – ILEX. Readers may recall Greg recently published a book titled ‘Boats of the Bay’ and he’s working on a sequel (‘First Boats of the Bay’). Greg commented that one of the craft to feature in the new book will be ILEX. I’ll hand over to Greg to tell the story ILEX.
“Ilex was the very first boat built by Scarlett Deeming at his boat shed at Tapu Point opposite the fledgling township of Opua. She was built in 1910 and was used by the Deeming family in a variety of ways – two of the key ones, firstly as the school ferry to take children to and from the Opua School and this operated from 1928 to 1939. Ilex was also the prime towing launch for the Okiato to Opua vehicular ferry which had been instigated by the military during World War Two and was then taken over by Jack and his son Selwyn Deeming from 1945 and continued to operate until A E Fuller and Sons took over around 1954 and Ilex was replaced by Miss Doris.
The history of Ilex then disappears until the mid / late 197o’s when brother Don and Max Lightband purchased the boat in Auckland and took her to Mangonui where they ran her as both a family boat as well as used for fishing charters. She appears to have been sold around the late 1970’s to the then owners of the Mangonui 4 Square (the shop over the water) – it is possible that Ilex was renamed Twilight at that time.
Ilex then suffered a mishap when during a storm one night (date unknown) she was forced under the Mangonui wharf and had her topside totally destroyed. She was hauled out and placed on a property at Mangonui and restoration started. It looks like ownership also changed around this time. Eventually Ilex was acquired by Ken Wright who took her to his property at Kaikohe when he set about rebuilding her deck and cabin top – in the process adding a low flying bridge. She was then used as a family pleasure boat with much fishing engaged in.
In 2010, Ilex was sold to Warwick Moore who had her transported to the Maritime Museum at Paeroa. She was being worked on there when sometime between 2016 and 2019 she was apparently accidently knocked off her cradle by a worker at the Museum. She was subsequent destroyed by the Museum. A key part of New Zealand’s maritime history, at that time over 100 years old, gone.”
Greg would like to learn more of ILEX’s history particularly between the mid-1950’s and mid-1970’s. And also her time in Mangonui and her demise at Paeroa.
So woodys can we help Greg with his search for more intel on the vessel.I’m also keen to get some photos of the final days at Paeroa.
CLASSIC BAY OF ISLNDS FERRY – BAY BELLE GETS A NEW LIFE
If you’re on fb I’m sure you would have seen the amazing project Kate Farrant has taken on board – refitting the old (1971>2011) Russell > Pahia ferry into a floating pizzeria. Kate and helpers has spent the past year restoring the 57’, built in 1960 by Deemings Bros – BAY BELLE and recently relaunched her. Link below to a Jan 2024 story from when she was 4sale, lots of photos https://waitematawoodys.com/2024/01/28/bay-belle-party-boat/
At this stage the plan is to base the pizzeria at Rakino Island this summer. And before you comment that there is already one ashore in Woody Bay, the superb pizzeria run by Alf Newton sadly closed permanently at the end of summer 2025. As I have mentioned on WW they were the best pizzas in Auckland. So its exciting news to learn of Kate’s enterprise – but, big shoes to fill to equal Alf’s creations 🙂
WW has been contacted by a friend of Kate’s Josh Chapman who is in the process of documenting (video) Kate and BAY BELLE’s story and is keen to learn more about the boat’s history. Josh has made a short video to give us a sneak peek at the project.
So woody if you have any information on BAY BELLE, or know of anyone who was involved in building her back in the early 1960s? leads to former crew, builders, or families connected to her history Josh would like to hear from you – joshchaps78@gmail.com
When Kate’s finished the fit out and up and running we will let you know. I can see a Classic Woodys Cruise to Rakino to celebrate the launch of summer 😉
FATHERS DAY SORTED FOR ANYONE WITH SALT IN THEIR VEINS
Rarely these days do I pick up a book and can not put it down – well it happened recently. I received an advance copy of Davey Jones just published book – ‘Davey Jones of Wakatahuri’ and its both a cracker read and an amazing account of his boating life and his interaction with the Wakatahuri region. Now I’m sure some of you will be asking yourself ‘ where is that?’ – well its in the outer Pelorus Sound at the top of the South Island, the Marlborough District (refer chart below). The area has been many things to many people – a fish factory, a boatyard, a ship breaking base and a community hub.
Davey Jones arrived at Wakatahuri as a young fisherman in 1956 and still lives there today , on and off when he’s not lapping NZ in his boat.
It’s an additive read that with the help of over 200 photographs will have you hooked.
And as a bonus – included is a reprint of an equally wonderful read -’Sounds Wrecking Co.’ by Martin Burthold.
So woodys drop a hint to the family re what you want for Fathers Day (Sept 7th) or just order one for yourself – $60+ p&p – all enquiries to daveyjonesofwakatahuri@gmail.com
AND I HAVE A COPY TO GIVE AWAY – just answer correctly the name of the vessel Davey Jones has most recently been lapping NZ on. Enter ONLY via email to waitematawoodys@gmail.com all correct entries go in the draw. Closes 6pm 17-08-2023.
AND THERE ALWAYS HAS TO BE A BOAT PHOTO – this is from Davey’s book and shows the work boat MARLBOROUGH PN47, in Picton Harbour c.1929, built by E R Lane. In the background are VALMARIE, at left, and Ernie Lane’s boat shed, the Picton Rowing Club sheds at right. The vessel under repair at Lane’s yard is a lighter from Port Robinson (Gore Bay)
One of the many classic boating channels I follow is the very popular small dinghy cruising guru Roger Barnes, star of his own highly popular YouTube channel (link below). Roger recently visited the USA, primarily to promote small dinghy cruising at the recent wooden boat show at the Mystic Seaport Museum.
In the 20 minute video Roger gets to sail on numerous cruising dinghies, visits boatyards and mooches around many port towns . The journey started in Maryland, Washington DC. and finished in Maine.
Sit back and enjoy a tour of the wooden boating scene in North America, and woodys it’s not all about dinghies 🙂
CLASSIC BOATERS GATHER FOR A SUNNY DAY OF SWAPS AND STORIES
Saturday delivered a cracker of a day in Auckland – crisp early on, but soon warming into blue skies and sunshine. Ideal conditions for a classic wooden boat gathering, even if this time we stayed firmly on dry land.
The occasion was the (almost annual) Woody Boat Boot Sale held at The Slipway, Milford – and frankly, you’d struggle to find a better venue. A special thanks to Cam Malcolm and Jason Prew for hosting us and for hauling out a few beautiful craft for close-up inspection. It added a real bonus for those who came for more than just shopping.
We had over 18 vendors on site, offering up a treasure trove of marine goods – everything from tiny cleats and chain plates to sails, bronze winches, stoves, and more. From what we saw, plenty of deals were done and everyone left with something – if not in hand, at least with a smile on their face.
It was also great to see so many familiar faces from the classic boating community. Events like this are about more than gear swapping – they’re about connection, community, and strengthening the bonds that keep the wooden boat movement alive and thriving. (photos yours truely & Geoff Fiebig)
Next Up: Mark Your Calendar – September 20th > 21st
Our next gathering is set for September 20th, and this time we’re heading back on the water – cruising up the Wairoa River to the Clevedon Cruising Club for an overnight dockside shindig. Expect a BBQ, live music, and the usual top-notch company. It’s always a highlight – more details to come soon, but lock the date in now.
MAJOR ACCESS UPGRADES AT MILFORD CREEK LED BY WOODEN BOAT ENTHUSIASTS
Interesting day yesterday on the water, gave Dave Giddens a hand taking his woody motor yacht – ALLERGY to the Slipway Milford for a haul out .
For all the wrong reasons the day started bad eg late leaving her waterfront berth meant we were time poor re the Milford Creek tide / access and the forecast was for deteriorating conditions as the day went by.
ALLERGY is a big girl – approx. 58’ LOA and a beam of 14’ and two good sized masts. Saving grace less than 4’ draft.
Well with an outgoing tide, a NE up the bum that was gusting 20>25 knots we ordered up the bridge to be raised and lined up the fairway poles.
I believe no one captured the run, which is just as well. Short answer is we made it – but:
1. We both shook hands once under the bridge
2. Every skipper of a vessel moored in the Milford Marina should thank ALLERGY for pruning the Pohutukawa trees on the bank
3. A small donation is probably due to Project Crimson
4. The Slipway BBQ won’t have to buy firewood for a few months
Lastly – FOSTERS deserve a medal for their mast work 40 years ago – nothing budged 🙂
ONE MAN, ONE CRAFT – IS THIS SPAIN’S LAST REAL SHIPWRIGHT
Good friends Pauline and Tim Evill escaped the rain and cold of NZ and have been mooching around Europe. Tim dropped me a note about a famous old boat builder known as Pepe de Pacho, in Castropol in Asturias, northern Spain who was the oldest member of a family of wooden boat builders that had been working on the Rio EO from the same tiny boatyard for almost one hundred years.
After a visit to the boatyard, where no one was home, he headed to the marina and managed to track down the old man after much detective work. It was a wonderful experience. A asked Tim to pull a story together – which today we great to share.
In Tim’s words – “As we travelled along the magnificent coast of Asturias, passing one beautiful seaside town after the other, I decided to go looking for a legendary character whom I had read was revered as the last traditional shipwright in the area—Pepe de Pacho. After numerous false forays and clumsy attempts with Google Translate, we finally fell upon a group of salty sea dogs who got on the case for me, called around, found Pepe at home having lunch and wrangled an invitation to the great man’s house.
Now retired from building full-size boats, Pepe de Pacho or Pepe as he is known, turned his talents to the most intricately detailed model boat building. The exquisite samples of his work are now displayed in part of his home in a small museum. There, he continues to build his intricate wooden models and keeps the tradition alive in miniature.
When a couple of curious Kiwis suddenly turned up armed with nothing more than eagerness and spanglish he was extraordinarily magnanimous and generous with his time—even though he spoke barely a word of English. With a permanent smile,he took his time to show us around whilst describing the history of the original of each model whilst I smiled and nodded and sadly caught only about a tenth of what he regaled me with.
After about an hour of awe struck admiration of his entire collection of over 90 boats, we shook hands, posed for photos and bid a fond farewell to Pepe and his lovely wife. A modest man of immense talent and irreplaceable knowledge and craftsmanship.
As we left Pepe advised us to go and learn Spanish and come back again! Every boat has its own story, he said, and without the language, we’re missing too much history.”
Below we have the story of Pepe’s very salty life – its a great tale, I hope you enjoy the read. (as always you can enlarge the photos by clicking on them)
Pepe de Pacho: The Soul of the Asturias Boatbuilding
Tucked along the estuarial shores of the Río Eo in Asturias lies a living relic of Spain’s maritime past—not in a grand museum, but in the humble home of Pepe de Pacho, one of the last true carpinteros de ribera, or traditional boatbuilders, in the region. Born José Félix González Vijande in 1946 in the coastal town of Piñera (Castropol), Pepe inherited more than a family name—he inherited a calling.
Roots in the Ría del Eo
Pepe’s journey into the world of boats began not in a classroom but at the workbench. His father, Marcelino “Pacho” González, established Astilleros Pacho in 1944—a modest shipyard that would become the heart of a multi-generational tradition. By the age of 14, Pepe was apprenticing alongside his brother Carlos, shaping timber and learning the rhythms of the tides and the wood grain under his hands. The workshop, later relocated to Berbesa on the Eo estuary, became a vital node in a once-bustling network of small boatyards lining the Asturian coast.
Throughout the mid-20th century, the Pacho yard built robust wooden vessels for fishing fleets from Galicia to the Basque Country. The craft they were most famous for were the handbuilt, Lateen sailed ‘Pacho’ boats. 6 metres long traditional Cantabrian sailing boats with a rounded hull and folding centreboard that have become the favourite class racing boat of the region. These weren’t just pleasure boats—they were lifelines for coastal communities and the main form of local transport carrying salt, wine and produce for centuries.
Reputation for Mastery
Pepe earned a quiet but steadfast reputation as a craftsman of integrity. Among those in the know his boats were prized and desired for being incredibly seaworthy and superbly built. He possessed an intuitive understanding of how wood moved with water. Colleagues often noted how he could “read” the timber—knowing by touch alone if a beam would flex too much under pressure or hold fast in a swell.
But it wasn’t just skill with tools that defined him. It was his dedication to keeping the traditions of Asturian boatbuilding alive in an era increasingly dominated by fiberglass and mechanization.
A Shift to Miniature, Not to Retirement
When Pepe finally retired from full-size boatbuilding in the 1990s, many assumed he would quietly fade from the maritime scene. Instead, he pivoted into an entirely new phase of artistry: the construction of model boats, each one a precise and poetic tribute to the vessels he once launched into the Cantabrian Sea as well as noteworthy craft from all over the world.
“I retired many years ago, and these are the only boats I build. All my life I worked in the shipyard founded by my father, Marcelino, known as ‘Pacho’. Now it’s my nephew Martín, who’s in charge of it,” explains Pepe as he shows us each of these scale replicas of ships that once left his shipyard, some of which can still be seen sailing the Eo estuary.
Using the same materials—local chestnut, pine, iroko—and the same techniques, Pepe began to produce handcrafted miniatures that mirrored real historical ships down to the finest plank and rivet. His first model, built in 1977, was merely a curiosity. But in retirement, he dove into the practice in earnest, creating over 90 unique pieces, many of them now on display in a personal museum in his home. The construction process is exactly the same as that followed in the construction of a real boat: it begins with the keel, placing the frames, fixing the stem and sternpost and nailing the sheathing planks, continuing with all the elements that go in the interior and from the deck upwards, especially the rigging and sails, made by the no less skilled hands than those of his wife Mirita
These models aren’t toys—they are scaled time capsules. From traditional fishing boats and rowboats to, English Tugboats and legendary schooners like El Industrial, Pepe’s work captures an exact scale model of history in each perfect centimeter of wood and rigging. Every curve tells a story, and every example is the result of countless hours of painstaking labor.
What a pleasure it was to meet Pepe who is understandably proud of his incredible body of work, and sustifiably so. But he was also so delightfully humble when I praised his astounding craftsmanship and meticulous work. Pepe is always eager to share his passion for boats big and small and anyone who wants to see his ‘museum’ here, at his home, just has to let him know before coming. Visits are free. Good luck.
A Legacy Beyond the Eo
Though he remains modest, Pepe has quietly become internationally respected in maritime heritage circles. His models have been featured in exhibitions, publications, and even cataloged in a book authored by his brother-in-law, Ignacio Vares. His daughter Aida created a website to showcase the collection, ensuring these vessels—both large and small—remain accessible to future generations.
Local efforts to preserve his legacy continue. The town of Castropol is preparing a new edition of the book chronicling his work, recognizing not just Pepe’s craftsmanship but his cultural importance as a living link to an endangered maritime tradition that fortunatley still lives on, in the capable hands of Pacho’s nephew at the same little shipyard on the banks of the Rio Eo where little has changed for one hundred years.
I’m a big fan of the Picton Clinker & Classic Boat Club, they seem to have the mix right when it comes the wooden boating community. Recently I was chatting to Roy Jones (Roysie) who among other things pulls together the clubs newsletter. Roysie mentioned a project he had been working on and promised a story – and today woodys we get the enjoy that story – I’ll hand over to Roysie to tell it.
“Fifteen years ago The Picton Clinker & Classic Boat Club was gifted a 14ft clinker hulk which came with a remarkable provenance. Built by Ernie Lane in 1920 for Mr John Brownlee, son of the timber tycoon, William Brownlee of Havelock, the boat was in a sorry state and owned by Club Member, Noel Johnson.
Noel’s initial attraction towards Ruru was that, when he lived in Havelock as a child in the mid 40’s, he can vividly remember Ruru resting in the creek near the present causeway, whilst owned by the Havelock butcher, Mr Johnny Buncombe. Playing in Ruru, he would often be chased off and Noel miraculously relocated the boat again in 2003 on the Holdaway farm near Blenheim.
The Holdaway’s had purchased Ruru in 1948, from Johnny Buncombe for 100 Pounds, and who himself, had bought her from the Brownlee’s in 1933.
Now in a very sorry state, Barry Holdaway gave the hulk to Noel who intended to restore her. Aged 80, he realised it was beyond him, and Noel wisely gifted the craft to the Picton Clinker & Classic Boat Club in an effort to preserve her, and it worked.
Ruru as restored in Jan 2010
Ruru is the Club’s flagship and is utilised on all the club runs as such. Roy had a little to do with the restoration and always admired her lines as created by Ernie, she was now available for all to view and admire. So last Christmas he borrowed Ruru for a week and after setting her up, took her lines off and drew them up on the computer. From these he created a table of offsets and after lofting out, began construction early in the New Year.
Ernie created a built-down style of deadwood almost a bustle, presumably to ensure the engine could be low as possible and with a fairly level prop-shaft, but this was difficult to recreate.
He must have steamed the kauri planks tightly to achieve the curvature around the stern deadwood rebate. Roy elected to use Meranti 9 mm marine ply rather than timber purely due to supply constraints. While gluing the lands removed the need for nailed and roved laps, it still required steamed American Oak ribs. This was the only job Roy required assistance with and co-opted a couple of retired members in the club to assist with the morning’s task. Peter Baker & Keith Henson willingly helped out and this is the norm amongst the Clinker Club members, advice and assistance is most often always freely available.
Propulsion System We originally installed a Stuart Turner P66 twin cyl. 10 hp engine in Ruru, but this was overpowered, so we swapped it for a P55 5 hp which proved more appropriate, however, the Stuart Turner became problematic for the numerous skippers in the Club. We have since settled upon a Lifan Chinese 6 hp and this has run well for 10 years, but is quite noisy. Roy considered this and, after speaking with new member, Tim Barton about his neat little electric 12ft’r, Billy O Tea, decided to also install an electric system in the Ruru clone.
With Tim’s advice on where to go for the Chinese supplier, Roy ordered a 4kw, 1000 rpm 48v dc motor and controller, which duly arrived about 4 weeks later without problem. At around $3,500 landed, he considered it reasonably economical.
Subsequent to that major decision, he continued construction, framing the deck and glassing same. Unlike Ruru, he made the top strake varnished with a sub belting along the bottom edge in a more traditional style. Lacking more traditional hardwoods for the beltings, standard Quila timber decking was utilised and machined to suit; merely because it is readily available and reasonably economical.
The dc motor is considerable, weighs about 30kg developing 39 N.M.
The universal is a CV joint from a wreckers, and the thrust bearing just aft. The motor output shaft is 35mm!
Having decided upon electric propulsion, Roy decided to throw the cat another goldfish and fitted hydraulic steering to enable comfortable curved seating in the stern without a the tiller interfering with guests seated there.
Once again, Roy went online and researched hydraulic steering systems. Having been quoted over $2000 locally, it cost less than $500 for a full set imported and landed at the door in 3 weeks.
The short S.S. rudder tiller penetrates the transom quite unobtrusively, to the ram below deck and can be disconnected from the rudder when removing for trailing.
The Electric system enabled a centre console with motor and battery installed beneath, leaving a huge area amidships, where an engine is usually placed. A forward curved seat fits neatly behind the curved foredeck coamings. The large 48v lithium battery required is situated under the front seat of the console, while the motor and drive train is beneath the foot level lid below the helm.
The 48v 100 amp hr lithium battery is the blue item & takes up the full width of the compartment. The silver item is the motor speed controller that came with the motor. The yellow lead is for connecting to the 48v HD charger.
Roy purchased the 48v 100 amp hour Lithium Ion Battery from Auckland along with the new trailer, driving up and back being cheaper than freighting both down to Marlborough.
He also installed a GPS Plotter & Sounder plus a Victron battery management system from Burnsco. This is a magic device providing a shunt in the neutral supply and thus determines the present battery voltage, the currently used amps & watts, plus provides a range in hours and minutes left in the battery. It is supplied with a 50mm gauge but the best method of readout is by Bluetooth to a cell phone enabling all the readings on one screen.
The greatest dilemma with electric boat propulsion systems is range anxiety, knowing how long you can actually cruise for, at the present power usage. Well, the Victron system diminishes this to a normal fuel level concern, if you run at full power then your fuel range will be minimal, but with sensible throttle use many hours are available. Roy intends to calibrate the range from GPS speed, Shaft rpm & amps drawn. These are shown further on.
Tim provided his figures, and for example at 3.3 knots Billy O Tea draws 5.2 amps, at 5 kts she draws 22 amps but at 5.4 kts, draws 50 amps indicating her best hull speed is just below 5 kts. i.e. 100 amp hour battery at 22 amps = 5 hrs motoring, and you can always slow down!
We used GPS speeds & digital tacho rpm figures with the Victron gauge providing the current drawn. Roy will do similar with Toroa EV, (her new name now she is completed.) Toroa means Salvins Mollymauk (and the EV is electric vessel!).
Ruru like most clinker hulls is a very seaworthy craft and it is on record that when Ernie Lane completed her, she was motored around from Picton to Havelock by a Mr Doug Pickering. This is a daunting trip for a 14ft Clinker, even today, and he is reported to have had fuel trouble near Cape Jackson, Doug simply tied Ruru to some kelp while he cleaned out the fuel line of shavings! Ruru was fitted with a Scottish Kelvin of about 5 hp from new and to have motored the 60 odd miles around the Cape was an impressive feat 105 years ago!
When one considers that she was built shortly after the First World War, it is remarkable that it was obviously intended she would have an engine from new. It wasn’t a retrofitted engine installation as is usually the case with this vintage. Perhaps this would indicate the wealth of the original purchaser, Mr John Brownlee?
With the helmsman and passenger sitting in the stern sheets. Toroa EV rides high in the bow but with passenger forward she sits nicely to the waterline.
Roy advised that Toroa EV took 5 months to construct at old farts pace… i.e. 5 hr per day knocking off at rum o’clock. He takes great delight in creating clinker craft, believing if the boat is pretty, it will become a 100 year boat. (only pretty boats last 100 years because their owners love them!)
The Picton Clinker Club members own many small clinker & classic style boats and are committed to salvaging and restoring these wonderful small craft, often saving them from various scrap heaps or bonfires.
Toroa EVPerformance
Revs Speed Amps
350 2.1kts 2.4
450 2.6kts 3.5
650 3.4kts 6.6
800 4.1kts 11.7
970 5.3 kts 16
1070 5.4 kts 21
1250 5.9 kts 39
As you can see, any attempt to exceed 5 knots hull speed causes the amps load to dramatically increase, up to about 4.5kt is very economical indeed but a little more and range diminishes dramatically. Exactly the same of a combustion engine I guess.”
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